Guest Blog: The Third Editor by GP Gottlieb

The Third Editor by GP Gottlieb

I’d started writing my first mystery and was searching for an editor. I researched online and finally submitted the story to two practiced editors plus one named Sonia with minimal editing experience who said she’d done time and knew “the ins and outs” of crime. That sounded promising, but I asked each editor to review my story and agreed to pay their hourly rates for the initial feedback.

My story was about a shapely young woman named Shannon, who has a sultry voice and is a waitress in a Midwestern diner. One night, Shannon is at work wearing a tight black miniskirt with a slinky crimson blouse and cheap dangling earrings. She constantly flings her long blonde hair over her shoulder and has long, cherry red nails. After a day in which she endured dozens of innuendos and come-ons, a muscled and tatted truck driver hits on her while she’s trying to clean the coffeepot.

Shannon is tired and cranky, forgot to serve toast or hashbrowns four times in the past hour, and has already been twice reprimanded by the fussy manager. When the truck driver grabs Shannon’s backside, she snaps, and before anyone can stop her, she stabs him in the arm with one of her stiletto heels. Later, we learn that the truck driver moonlights as a mob enforcer and was in the diner that night to strong arm one of the waitress’s best-tipping regulars. It also turns out that the FBI was trying to nab the truck driver for transporting illegal material over state lines, so ultimately, the waitress comes off as a hero.

The first editor I heard back from found a few grammar mistakes but neglected to ask why the reader needs to know how much Shannon’s earrings cost or why anyone would wear stiletto heels to wait tables at a diner.   

Neither the first nor second potential editor said anything about the cliches and incongruities. How many sultry blondes and muscled truckdrivers really exist, and how many waitresses manage the upkeep of a manicure? 

Only Sonia, the third editor pointed out that a normal waitress would wear rubber gloves rather than ruin her manicure while cleaning a coffee maker. Sonia had life experience that included, she admitted, a stint in rehab for meth addiction, a year in prison, and a few months in jail for attacking a police officer who was trying to cuff her. She didn’t hide her past but said that she didn’t like to dwell on it, and there was shockingly little info about her on Google.

We met at a random, mostly empty bar on Chicago’s west side. Sonia said it would be safer if I didn’t know where she lived. She warned me in her flat Chicago accent that we’d never meet twice in the same spot. Sonia looked like a sweetheart, with a heart-shaped faced and a winning smile, but she was shady. She deflected questions about her past and I already knew that she had a murky internet presence. She also insisted on cash payment and used burner phones, so her phone number kept changing.

But Sonia’s advice was spot on. She said that no matter how hard the waitress tried to stab the burly guy with the heel of her shoe, nothing would happen unless there was a stiletto knife hidden in the heel. Sonia suggested that Shannon either stomp on his foot with all her strength or pull out a 4.25 mm “Liliput” pistol and shoot the guy in the foot. Another option was to bash him in the head with the coffee pot because, Sonia patiently explained, unless the waitress was a trained killer, neither stabbing nor stomping would slow the guy down. 

Sonia assured me that she knew more than most about how to inflict pain, but I was sold when she started raving about the little gun, which turned out to be the exact model she carried around in her purse. And she had other solid suggestions.

 “If that waitress stabbed the truck driver,” she said, knowing whereof she spoke, “she’d be hauled to court, and suddenly she’d be fighting a dull, drawn-out legal battle that nobody wants to read about.”

I was blown away. An editor who doesn’t see beyond what’s on the page is not worth the money, but Sonia was a little scary. She liked the crime aspects of the story, but wanted me to round Shannon out, maybe have her bring slices of pie home to her grandmother or sing folksongs to her baby niece.

“Nobody should be only one thing,” she said the second time we met. “Give everyone some depth.” She told me that she fires clients who don’t make the corrections she suggests and added, “I’m used to people listening to me.”

She was a little intimidating, but Sonia taught me that nothing I write is sacred. At our third meeting, I gave her a new version of the story in which the high tipper who gets stabbed is a Federal agent. 

“Making the story more interesting is good,” she wrote in red, “but adding clichéd characters and a convoluted plotline is not.”  Then she told me a story about how stupid she’d been to transport drugs across state lines. She cautioned against letting my characters come off as idiots.

As disappointing as it was to see a thick red line crossing out an entire paragraph, Sonia taught me a lot about writing. “If your stories are boring and trite,” she said, “nobody is going to want to read them.” 

Much as I admired Sonia, appreciated her edits, and enjoyed the stories about her trajectory, I ultimately ended up hiring a different editor. It wasn’t her fault, but Sonia screwed up because she’d never worked as a waitress and didn’t know that restaurant employees are required to tie their hair back in most states. Nobody wants hair in their hashbrowns.

GP Gottlieb is the author of the Whipped and Sipped Mystery Series (Battered was re-released September 2025 in Paperback, Kindle and Nook). She’s a member of the Blackbird Writers, on the Sisters in Crime Chicagoland Board, and a member of SinC Colorado and SinC Wisconsin. She likes posting on Facebook, reads voraciously, and has interviewed over 260 authors for New Books in Literature, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. Her stories have been published in Pure Slush, Another Chicago Magazine, Grande Dame Literary, and other journals and anthologies. Over 250 of her essays on travel, music, culture, writing, and things that annoy her are available in various publications at Medium.Com.

Waiting . . .

By James M. Jackson

Being an author means learning how to wait. Say what?

Between the inception of a story’s idea and its publication are multiple points when we authors must (or should) wait. Often the brilliant idea must wait until the author deals with higher priority work. Only when time permits can she begin the first draft of the story. That’s why when some well-meaning soul tells me they have “the perfect idea for a story,” I listen patiently and then suggest they write their own story.

After completing the story’s first draft, many authors put it aside to give its words time to settle. This self-imposed wait allows us to view our story from a fresher perspective, to more easily spot plot holes, characterization issues, understand where pacing must change. And so we wait.

Other waits are not on us. If we use an editor (or editors), we send them our manuscript and wait for their comments, suggestions, concerns, and maybe even a little praise. My seventh Seamus McCree novel, Granite Oath, entered that state a week ago. The editor and I have agreed to a schedule, so this wait will not be long. And yet the wait can feel interminable because so much future work depends on what she finds lacking in the present story.

One of the most frustrating waits happens when authors seek representation for their work. We craft a query letter, add requested extras that vary by agent (e.g. first ten pages, a synopsis, a marketing plan, comparable titles) and make our submission. In olden days, we submitted by mail and included a self-addressed stamped envelope for the agent’s response. Now, everything is electronic, which only means our wait no longer depends on mail delivery times.

I have a project seeking representation. One agent responded the same day (a rejection, but at least that allowed me to cross that person off my list and spur me to send out a query to another agent). Agents routinely claim to take eight or more weeks to respond. If they ask for a manuscript, the reading times can be even longer. And some agents believe their time is too valuable to waste sending rejections—if you don’t hear from them, they don’t want you.

So, I wait.

Another indeterminate wait occurs when the author or her agent submits to publishers. Other time-outs can occur while waiting for a cover artist, manuscript formatting or conversion to an ebook. In traditional publishing, the wait times expand to accommodate the publishing house’s calendar, which books publication dates a year or more after contract acceptance.

Authors who publish their own work can eliminate many of the delays by doing the work themselves. They can create their cover, format the book, and publish on their timetable. But that means, while they are performing tasks someone else could do, other projects have to wait.

Wait, I hear you say, isn’t that where this whole thing started?

Yep, glad you noticed, and while I am waiting for my editor and responses from agents, I’m working on the next two books. And I have other ideas still waiting . . .

* * * * *

James M. Jackson authors the Seamus McCree series. Full of mystery and suspense, these thrillers explore financial crimes, family relationships, and what happens when they mix. You can sign up for his newsletter and find more information about Jim and his books at https://jamesmjackson.com.

An Interview with Author and Editor--Ramona Long

I’ve had the pleasure of working with Ramona Long as an editor for many years. My experience with her editing includes:

·      Hiring Ramona to edit short stories I’ve published here at WWK during the holidays

·      Having my short story edited in Fish Nets, the second Guppy anthology, for which Ramona served as editor

·      Submitting my first act of a new novel for her conceptual assessment service

·      Hiring her to assess my full manuscript

·      Taking classes with Ramona online (to sell my novel).

In April, Wildside Press released the third Guppy anthology, Fish or Cut Bait. Ramona served as editor on this volume. I wanted to interview her about it and how she works with clients.

Please welcome Ramona Long back to WWK.                                                           E. B. Davis

Is it easier or harder to work with multiple authors, such as in an anthology, than to work with one author on a longer project?

Yes and no. In an anthology, each story is an individual work, and I regard each one that way when I am reading and editing. I am in the habit of mentally closing one story before beginning the next, so there’s no problem with keeping the stories straight in my own head. An anthology does require more effort in some ways: the stories must be identical in format; an order must be selected; biographies and an introduction are required; stories may adhere to a theme, etc. These “extras” take extra time, but the most challenging part of an anthology is the herding cats aspect—the reception and return of stories at various points in the editing process. For this reason, I’m grateful when a group selects a coordinator, aka story wrangler.

Do you accept rebuttal?

Yes and no—again. I like the word “rebuttal” because many times, in my edits, I ask questions or I relay what a certain action tells me about a character. If that impression is not what the author intends, we may have a discussion on how to clear it up.

If an author disagrees with a comment and/or chooses to ignore a suggestion, there is no case for rebuttal. I can’t force an author to make a change I suggest. To be honest, it makes me a little nervous when an author says “I made every change you noted!” I am a writer too, and if I feel strongly about a line or a scene that rubs a critique partner the wrong way, I may stick to my instinct. Ultimately, though I love the collaborative effort, it’s the author’s name in the byline, not mine.

The only exception is a factual or procedural error in an anthology. If an author doesn’t fact check, or disagrees with a comment such as “by doing XYZ, your cop hero just committed a felony” in a single work, the only person affected is that author. If an author writes an error in a group anthology, that mistake affects the entire project, and his/her fellow authors by extension. Part of my job as editor is to help create a product that reflects positively on the entire group.  

Is editing short stories different from editing novels?

Only in the amount of time spent. With both short stories and novels, I do a quick read-through first, think about the story for a bit, and then begin a page by page edit. With a novel, I put together a list of characters and their connections to other characters and the plot. With a short story, I may not need to create such a list. Overall, with both a short story and a novel, I’m looking for the same points: a logical and pleasing story that intrigues me in the beginning, holds my interest through the middle, and satisfies me in the end.

Is editing while maintaining an author’s style hard?

No, and this is where being a writer myself is a plus. Just like all of the authors reading this, I have my own voice and writing style, which I am certain no one in the universe can possibly emulate because it is so uniquely mine, all mine. [smile]

I read a lot of manuscripts, and I see a lot of different styles. That’s a real perk to the job. Some authors like long rambling sentences. Some are direct and pithy. Some writers will present a manuscript that is strictly by the book, grammatically; others experiment with fragments, run-ons, and so on. As long as it works, makes sense, and gives the storytelling an interesting edge, I am game for any type of writing style.

The only time I’d protest or question an author’s style is if there’s a readability issue. If your writing is so pithy that it’s choppy, or so rambling that I can’t process all of the information in a single sentence, that could pose a problem with readers.

As long as punctuation and grammar are correct, anything goes in fiction, right?

Not exactly, but I think you know that. You can write a series of grammatically correct and properly punctuated sentences that put me to sleep. You can use passive voice or weak verbs, and while the punctuation and grammar are spot on, your writing could be more appealing with better word choices.

We have a wonderfully complex language that is bound by rules on the one hand, but offers infinite possibilities on the other. I don’t think writers should be corralled by rules of grammar and punctuation as long as the breaking of the rules is by choice. If an author wants to experiment with structure and syntax because she believes the story would be better told that way, go for it. If an author wants to challenge her readers, that is great. As long as it’s appealing and readable, you have my full support.

What are your editing pet peeves?

The nitpicky part of me says semi-colons, because they are so often misused. It’s something I notice, because I notice. For mystery authors, I would say my pet peeve is forcing the mystery. That means trying to create tension where no tension exists, or making characters act like puppets instead of people. Example:

Husband walks into the kitchen and sees Wife.

Husband: “Did you hear? Walter down the street died.”

Wife: “Was he murdered?”

In real life, Wife would say, “Oh my gosh, what happened?” because that’s how non-mystery sleuths react, since Walter down the street probably died of a heart attack in his bed. However, that’s boring for a mystery writer, who has heard “Get the mystery going on page 1!” so many times, she’s in a panic to get the mystery going—sometimes a little too quickly to be believed. Reality can be dramatic, too. Wife can ask what happened, and Husband can respond that he doesn’t know, but there are four cop cars, an ambulance, and a SWAT bus down the street, so they rush off to check it out. Now the mystery is going without Wife forcing it. Make your characters act like people, and your story will be more realistic.

Are newbie writers harder to deal with than masters?

No. To be honest, I rarely have trouble with clients. If they don’t like my work or suggestions, they don’t come back, and that’s that. I should note that I have a weeding process. Most of my clients are repeats, and I only take new clients via a recommendation or word of mouth, or a class or workshop. When I receive a new inquiry, I ask a few questions to make sure it’s a project I could edit effectively. That’s to protect both the writer and me and to save us time.

In the last Guppy anthology, Fish Nets, you teamed with a police procedure specialist. Did you team up again for Fish or Cut Bait?

Yes. I always have back-up. Although I’m careful to note that the responsibility for fact-checking is the author’s, not mine, I’ll question a point if I think it’s in error. Like authors who do research, I have gathered some experts in various areas who help me out when I have a question beyond the scope of my knowledge as a layperson. In my professional contacts, I have a city cop and a former state trooper, an ICU nurse, a lawyer, a reporter, a therapist, a Rieki master, a former Marine, a fisherman….

Do you ask writers for references or refer potential clients to old clients for recommendations?

Most of the time, when someone sends an inquiry, they’ll note why they contacted me—I took your course, I was in a SinC anthology, your client ABC recommended you. If they don’t, I ask—politely—how they came across my name. I provide references when that’s requested.

What I’ve found to be most useful when working with new people is to suggest we do a partial before the commitment of a full novel. A 50-page edit is not a huge investment of money for the client, or time for me, and it will let both of us know if we can work well together.

What are your top five guidelines to mystery writers?

Don’t force the mystery. As much as possible, allow your characters to act and react as living people would act and react. If you think about how real people would behave, logical writing follows.

Remember that murder is an unnatural event and that the victim was a person, with a past and now a future that has been cut short. Everyone has a mother, and it makes a story richer if someone in it grieves for the victim, even if that victim was a scumbag. A murder should shake up the entire community of the story.

Give a valid reason why the crime can’t be solved right away and why an amateur sleuth must solve it, if that applies. “Cops are dumb” is not a valid reason. I call this the VGR—the Very Good Reason a layperson is willing to put him/herself in danger to solve the puzzle of the crime.

Give characters, especially your protagonist, a rich full life with talents and skills. A person will have family, friends, and lovers; a job and hobbies; hurts, desires, and ambitions; bills to pay, a lawn to mow, and a dog to feed. So should characters. A character who possesses a particular talent—even as minor as the ability to chit chat with people—can use that as a skill in the story.

Create an interesting story world and send your characters out into a variety of places and

locations within it. Get out of the kitchen! You are taking the reader on a journey. Give them some landscape to admire.

What do your services cost, and how do you accept payment?

For a short story, my fee is $50 for a story up to 20 pages, then $1/page beyond that.

For novels or longer works, my fee is $2.50-$3.00 per manuscript page (250 words per page.) It works out to about a penny per word.

I work primarily as a developmental editor. I don’t do strict copyediting or proofreading.

I ask for ½ fee up front and the final ½ when the edited manuscript is returned. I use PayPal for invoices and payment.

What are you currently writing?

After three years, I’ve completed a contemporary novel for women. It is currently with a proofreader before being sent to an interested agent. My next writing project is a collection of stories about Acadian women at various points in history. It will be a personal as well as professional exploration. Last year, I had the honor of being asked to contribute to a book called Extraordinary Gifts: Remarkable Women of the Delaware Valley. It made me want to write about women from my own cultural heritage.

You are on vacation, Ramona, do you read? If so, what? Do you always mentally edit? And what location would be your favorite?

Of course I read, and in my dreams, I’m always reading under an umbrella at the beach! This summer, I’ve decided to read Ruth Rendell’s last few novels as Barbara Vine. She passed away recently, so this is my homage to a favorite author who left behind a phenomenal body of work.

Do I mentally edit? No--I’m on vacation!

Ramona DeFelice Long writes fiction and non-fiction for children and adults and everyone in between. Her personal writing has appeared in literary, juvenile and regional magazines and publications.

Ramona has received support and acknowledgment from the artistic community, most recently a Fellowship from the Mid-Atlantic Arts Foundation and a residency at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts. In 2013, she was awarded a literary fellowship from the Delaware Division of the Arts as an Established Artist in Literature-Creative Nonfiction.  In 2009, she received an equivalent award from the DDOA as an Established Artist in Fiction.

Ramona has collaborated with Sisters in Crime’s largest chapter, the Guppies, to edit three anthologies of mystery and crime stories: Fish and Cut Bait, Fish Nets, and Fish Tales. She also co-edited a collection of stories from Delaware authors, Tales from the Ink Slingers, with Wilmington writer JM Reinbold, in addition to several short story anthologies for writing groups.

                      https://ramonadef.wordpress.com/about/professional/