tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post6524937312968032210..comments2024-03-28T12:01:31.049-04:00Comments on Writers Who Kill: Dumbing DownJim Jacksonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-29417687317536623972015-01-19T20:05:38.219-05:002015-01-19T20:05:38.219-05:00Tremendous post/rant. Thoroughly enjoyed all the r...Tremendous post/rant. Thoroughly enjoyed all the responses.Georgia Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385201859016332797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-58176926386154514512015-01-19T06:15:04.169-05:002015-01-19T06:15:04.169-05:00Pam -- You make an interesting point about the Har...Pam -- You make an interesting point about the Harry Potter books and vocabulary. However, I've noticed that fantasy and science fiction readers have a greater tolerance for words they don't know because they are in worlds they don't know. I wonder if that makes a difference.<br /><br />~ JimJim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-51833482678522986432015-01-18T22:03:13.331-05:002015-01-18T22:03:13.331-05:00Wow, you really started an interesting conversatio...Wow, you really started an interesting conversation, Jim!<br /><br />My comment: Remember Harry Potter. JK Rowling proved that authors didn't have to "dumb down" their vocabulary or their story lines for a young audience. <br /><br />We shouldn't underestimate our readers--whether formally educated or not.<br /><br />Interestingly, in a critique group I was both admonished for using a complex vocabulary (for a professor) and then for having that character use a common expression anyone would use. The latter criticism was because the one commenting on my piece said such an educated person would never use such a common expression! Sometimes, you can't win for losing. :)Pam De Voehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01352755063960715280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-20878158468865074602015-01-18T16:27:35.288-05:002015-01-18T16:27:35.288-05:00I love coming across unusual words so keep putting...I love coming across unusual words so keep putting them in, Jim! For me, characters have to speak naturally. If that means a college professor uses words of three syllables, so be it. When I read some bestselling authors who are clearly on the words-of-one-syllable bandwagon I feel cheated by their colorless language. There's a reason words evolve and appear - it's because they do the job. So keep using your bright, vivid, multihued, kaleidoscopic vocab - we'll all be the richer for it.Shari Randallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16425493627354028820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-85684805733175830422015-01-18T13:49:48.325-05:002015-01-18T13:49:48.325-05:00Gayle -- love the name of your hometown.
Krista -...Gayle -- love the name of your hometown.<br /><br />Krista -- don't you and she both know that!Jim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-41568212468546679362015-01-18T13:44:16.687-05:002015-01-18T13:44:16.687-05:00It's a good thing you have Jan around to set y...It's a good thing you have Jan around to set you straight! ; )Kristahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11002970043709820868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-79267765170484196412015-01-18T13:31:21.091-05:002015-01-18T13:31:21.091-05:00Pity, Jim. I love cacophonies. Also brouhahas, tch...Pity, Jim. I love cacophonies. Also brouhahas, tchotchkes, and the phrases "flotsam and jetsam" and "sturm und drang". I had no idea I was confusing my readers... although none of them complained. The only thing they've ever commented on is that some people think that my real hometown (where my mysteries are set) is a fake name. Really, I live in Placentia.Gayle Carlinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783449240138097315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-75270916452206111842015-01-18T13:25:43.762-05:002015-01-18T13:25:43.762-05:00Susan and Barbara -- It is a viscous cycle. I have...Susan and Barbara -- It is a viscous cycle. I have not and will not completely capitulate.<br /><br />Like Barb, I stick to my guns when it comes to historical or technical terms or to regionalisms. I wrote a short story that involved an open pit mine and another a historical story about an 1850s newspaper shop. Both used uncommon words because the characters would have used them. My Yooper stories contain colloquialisms that are what they are.<br /><br />I tend to write complex sentences (and plots), which already challenges some readers. Given my choice, I'll keep the sentences as that is the rhythm of my style while forgoing some of my vocab.<br /><br />We'll wee how it goes.<br /><br />~ JimJim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-50411407303148730552015-01-18T13:04:41.038-05:002015-01-18T13:04:41.038-05:00Krista -- I love your thinking. The problem, of co...Krista -- I love your thinking. The problem, of course, is one person's natural vocabulary is another person's pretentious.<br /><br />We'll see how the experiment goes. Jan (the much better half) is in your camp and just starting the final proofreading. It will be interesting to see if she objects to the final product since she's likely to remember where I had previously used the "big" words and now done something different.<br /><br />~ JimJim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-5674970137078093132015-01-18T12:21:01.193-05:002015-01-18T12:21:01.193-05:00Oh my gosh, have you hit a hot button with me. The...Oh my gosh, have you hit a hot button with me. The words are only obscure because we don't use them. It's a vicious cycle.<br /><br />I absolutely refuse to be tied down by this. True, characters shouldn't speak in ways that are untrue to them. And I tell my Maine Clambake Mystery series through the first person POV of my thirty year old protagonist, so that limits me somewhat, though as my 30 year-old daughter points out, my NPR-listening 26 year old niece speaks quite differently than most of her peers.<br /><br />But instead of dumbing language down, it is my mission to rescue language. In one of our Level Best stories, an elderly Maine character referred to a "dite of milk." One of the editors wanted to take it out, because she couldn't find it in a dictionary. I fought it like crazy, and finally found doit, meaning a little (which was perfectly clear for the context). The author said,"Oh, I'm sure that's the correct spelling. I'd never seen it written. It was something my grandmother used to say." Worth preserving in my opinion.<br /><br />I feel the same way about rules like "never use adverbs." Please. If they're never necessary, why do we have them?<br /><br />English is a big, glorious, wonderful language, one with multiple roots and that unabashedly borrows from other languages. It is in part the love the language that draws me to reading and writing. And as I reader I find I need a certain level of complexity, of plot, of character, of theme and yes, of language, to truly be drawn into the world of a book.Barb Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16470220932617188498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-64162699350000082542015-01-18T12:11:53.767-05:002015-01-18T12:11:53.767-05:00I think you should stick to your guns and use the ...I think you should stick to your guns and use the words you believe your character would say. We're dumbing down everything these days. Believe it or not, our audience does have intelligent readers who will find your book and enjoy it because it isn't dumbed down.<br />Having taught high school English for 34 years, I have never understood how the readers of Poe's day had such huge vocabularies. Same with those who read Charles Dickens' works. It shows how much our educational system has deteriorated. If these words were part of standardized public school testing, believe me, those students would have them drilled into their heads. Perhaps your beta readers are wrong?Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14080938779828043023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-60333606659412122562015-01-18T10:19:36.012-05:002015-01-18T10:19:36.012-05:00Jim, instead of changing your words, ahem, maybe y...Jim, instead of changing your words, ahem, maybe you should change your beta readers. (Now ducking because I'm sure rotten tomatoes are coming my way.) <br /><br />IMHO, the only reason to dumb down vocabulary is when it's so strained that it becomes pretentious. I'm a big believer in writing for flow. Stilted sentences and language take the reader out of the story. <br /><br />Use your words and use them with joy. Your readers will appreciate them!Kristahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11002970043709820868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-28890483648063859472015-01-18T09:40:03.551-05:002015-01-18T09:40:03.551-05:00Hey Claire -- I hear you. I have to admit I am a f...Hey Claire -- I hear you. I have to admit I am a fan of semicolons; they mirror the way we think and speak. [grin]<br /><br />I keep them and colons out of dialogue, but otherwise I retain a fair number of them because I use complex sentence structure on occasion. <br /><br />So far my publisher and editors have allowed that structure to remain.<br /><br />~ JimJim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-57407912053659328582015-01-18T09:16:54.874-05:002015-01-18T09:16:54.874-05:00I relate so well to your thoughts, Jim, and severa...I relate so well to your thoughts, Jim, and several of the responses. I use some "obscure" words in my daily language and get some pretty funny looks. But I like language and think we're losing some of the words that have very specific meaning -- one word with do what takes a sentence otherwise (sometimes).<br /><br />I spent my reading time as a youth looking up many words and from that I learned. I hated to be told to use a dictionary to learn how to spell a word (because I could never find it because I was misspelling it) but I loved to look up words to discover their meaning. And from there I learned other words that could do the job as well. <br /><br />I hate dumbing down my writing. You can't use semi-colons; no one likes them. You can't write complex sentences; no one will read them. And on it goes. <br /><br />Hang in there with your gut choice, Jim, and only use the synonym if it's really necessary.Clamo88https://www.blogger.com/profile/16742188896080634218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-60173506974515941762015-01-18T09:09:27.454-05:002015-01-18T09:09:27.454-05:00LOL! It was an erudite rant, Jim. LOL! It was an erudite rant, Jim. E. B. Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16746747050278597888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-40955045976796506532015-01-18T09:05:12.404-05:002015-01-18T09:05:12.404-05:00Kathleen -- We need to stay in character & I l...Kathleen -- We need to stay in character & I like Shelia's point that even when describing her blue-collar character's actions she uses simple, minimum-syllable words. That's something I don't think I would have thought about.<br /><br />~ Jim Jim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-57292329679870937162015-01-18T09:03:37.503-05:002015-01-18T09:03:37.503-05:00Shelia -- I agree that often the "obscure&quo...Shelia -- I agree that often the "obscure" word has a slightly different meaning to it than its simple "synonym." Using the simple word can obfuscate the difference<br /><br />My own vocabulary will only shrink as everything about my memory seems to shrink with more years under my belt. I suspect some of the last to go will be just the words we've been talking about because they are unique.<br /><br />~ JimJim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-66941104739406676702015-01-18T08:58:33.322-05:002015-01-18T08:58:33.322-05:00KB -- Your rule is a decent one as long as readers...KB -- Your rule is a decent one as long as readers don't stop at the word.<br /><br />EB - Good point that the "wrong" words regardless of size can take a reader out of the story; that is what we writers are trying to prevent.<br /><br />Hmmm -- didn't realize I was ranting; I took it as commentary on society at large <br /><br />Gloria -- a little bit of character-defining vocabulary can go a long way. Set it in place and every so often remind the reader with a well-timed doozy should do the trick.<br /><br />~ Jim Jim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-9775497823727246112015-01-18T08:57:27.490-05:002015-01-18T08:57:27.490-05:00I like to trust my readers and their intelligence....I like to trust my readers and their intelligence. On the other hand, I want them to be able to read what I write without having to stop and look up words. Anything that takes the reader out of the story is not good!<br /><br />My characters are not usually well-educated, so my problem runs in the other direction sometimes, slang that some people may not know. I listen to my beta readers and try hard to make it understandable while leaving in the "flavor."<br /><br />I took Latin in high school (required) and it does help with English vocabulary.KM Rockwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973749764907859829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-23113941460934956262015-01-18T08:56:53.703-05:002015-01-18T08:56:53.703-05:00I've always loved words and have been collecti...I've always loved words and have been collecting them all my life (yes, my grade-school classmates thought I was strange). But watching Jeopardy makes it clear that a lot of people didn't get the same education that I did.<br /><br />Several years ago I submitted a first chapter to a writers contest. The first paragraph included the word "obfuscate" (and I applied it to a lawyer's behavior). I got lots of flack for using such an obscure word--and of course, after that I was seeing it everywhere. I still think it was the right word to use.<br /><br />But I'd like to add a caveat. I write about three series protagonists. Two are college-educated, and the third is younger and blue-collar, with only a high school education. Obviously the last one would not use fancy language in ordinary speech, but I've also found that I don't want to use multi-syllable words even in writing about her actions and thoughts. She wouldn't prevaricate, she'd waffle or waver. Does that make sense?<br /><br />So please don't dumb down your vocabulary, or we'll lose some great words forever.Sheila Connollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05165644581595919711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-5261056200767680602015-01-18T08:42:09.615-05:002015-01-18T08:42:09.615-05:00Jim, maybe it was wise to change a few words, but ...Jim, maybe it was wise to change a few words, but I don't think you need to dumb down your work, especially if it's the way your main character thinks and talks. I just finished my first Aaron Elkins book, and his main character, an anthropologist uses very big words like describing a character where he "was ready to kick the oleaginously reluctant Frawly . . ." and other words dealing with words only someone familiar with his field or an archeologist would understand. He's written many books and now that I've found him, I was so delighted with his work, I'm going to read more. It seems to me that most people can get the general idea of what a word they're unfamiliar with just from the sentence it's in. If they want to look it up in a dictionary, okay, if not they can go on with the story quite well, in my opinion.Gloria Aldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13581719606924364447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-9924065596452395432015-01-18T07:50:15.751-05:002015-01-18T07:50:15.751-05:00KB makes a good point.
I normally don't spea...KB makes a good point. <br /><br />I normally don't speak in "A" words, and I am an auditory learner and writer. I write what I'm hearing in my head (yes, I do hear voices!). I think many writers operate the same way except they are seeing the scene, whereas I'm hearing it. My characters aren't known for their big words so I usually don't have a problem. They have no time to wax poetic while demons follow them. <br /><br />My problem is when I choose a word that the beta reader disagrees with--everyone understands the meaning of the word, but they don't like the sound of the word or think it is awkward even when I think is it the right and appropriate word. Small words can take readers out of a story as much as words they don't know. <br /><br />Back to KB's point. Dumbing down your books may force you to decide if you want readers or a dusty tome sitting on a shelf. First, we have the problem of fewer and fewer readers. While those readers remaining may be "dumb," at least they exist. I'm glad you've acquiesced. You needed your rant. I must rant sometimes, too (as you know!). No matter how much we want our work to be our own, we must write to market. We're professionals!E. B. Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16746747050278597888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-993649290245605005.post-4663531024733839172015-01-18T06:56:36.219-05:002015-01-18T06:56:36.219-05:00My rule for such words (and I use a cornucopia of ...My rule for such words (and I use a cornucopia of them) is that if the reader knows what the sentence means, don't change them. If the reader has to know for the sentence to make sense, change them.<br />Personally I love them and read with a dictionary nearby and the OED on the shelf. KB Ingleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089951663907060127noreply@blogger.com